Hypothesis: As much as we'd like them to be neutral, guy is fully masculine, and guys is masculine dominant. You should avoid using them indefinitely or for mixed groups.
The first is easy to dispose of, because it is trivial to find or construct examples in which guy contrasts with an exclusively feminine term like girl. E.g.:
"Singer-songwriter" is a name for a genre which you can summarize as "guy with a guitar" or "girl with a guitar".Anyway, it's true that you may see a white guy and an asian girl going out more then you would see an asian guy and a white girl going out.
Hot Girl Threatens Guy with Huge Strap On
The latter is less emphatic, because there are cases where guys is used to encompass both genders. I will usually greet a couple that I meet with some variation of "Hey, guys, what's up?" for example.
Hey guys. As most of you already know, we have cancelled the rest of our UK/Europe RIOT Tour.If You Guys Are Right, Facebook Is Screwed
However, the best evidence that the core meaning is still masculine comes from the sentence She's just one of the guys, in all its wide variation. The conventional implicature of that sentence is that she would not normally be considered one of the guys.
There are certainly contexts in which the implicature of X is just one of the Y is that X partakes of the characteristics of Y, e.g. A dog is just one of the animals, which would encompass X within the scope of Y. However, I'm going to maintain that the majority of actual uses when X is female and Y is guys is that X is eschewing feminine characteristics in order to partake in the masculine culture of Y.
You'll note that this usage abounds in sports.
On the Field, She's Just One of the GuysI just wanted to play ball - they treated me like I was one of the guys.
There are also abundant examples of guys being used as the ordinary plural of guy, e.g.:
Double winner Matt Damon delighted to be one of the guys: He's always been a big hit with the ladies, now actor Matt Damon can rest assured he's top with the boys, too. The Bourne Ultimatum's star netted two of the top honours at the second annual Guys Choice awards.Guys and Dolls [the musical]
Why Guys Dump Girls They Dig.
Hopefully, at this point I've convinced you that guys has a very common, if not dominant, use that is primarily masculine and exclusive of feminine. Under the same logic that deprecates words like chairman and indefinite he, I argue that guys is not adequately gender-inclusive of women and that we should avoid using it as a gender-neutral term on that basis.
Posted by Greg at June 11, 2008 10:16 AM
The Electric Company started off "Hey You Guys!!!!" (Also used in Goonies).
What do you suggest as an alternative?
Hot Girl Threatens Guy with Huge Strap On
Without pictures, this post is useless.
Also, Hot Girl with Huge Strap On Threatens Guy or Hot Girl Threatens (Guy with Huge Strap On)?
This makes a difference!
Note that the Matt Damon sentence demonstrates that "one of the guys" is not synonymous with "accepted like a male". It means "accepted like a regular person", with the implicit assumption that "regular people" are male.
I use "guy" as a gender-neutral term for "regular person of whatever gender" because I want to force it to be more gender-neutral. Word means, especially connotative meanings, aren't static, and the more we force them to the meanings we want (or need), the less force is required.
But what about Millie from The Electric Company who yelled "Hey you guys!"? I think that was clearly addressing everyone equally.
#4: What part of "there are cases where guys is used to encompass both genders" are you having trouble with?
#3: Very much yes, as to the first point, and more clear than my indistinct maunderings; that's precisely why use of a masculine term for an indefinite person is unacceptable.
As to the second point, I agree as to the process, and even sympathize to an extent. I'm just convinced that singular guy is pervasively masculine, and that this inevitably poisons plural guys for the indefinite use.
#2: Since threaten readily takes a complement with with, the former interpretation is more likely than the latter.
#1: I don't have a sufficiently euphonious substitution at the tip of my tongue.
It's never 'girl with huge strap on'. It's either 'guy with huge strap on' or 'threatens with huge strap on'.
It looks to me like the only gender-neutral/inclusive forms of 'guys' are when used to addresss a group. Which means that the use goes away, largely, if we regularize "y'all" and fill that second-plural pronoun gap... (And keep it informal, of course. For more formal address of groups, 'people' works as is.)
I disagree; I'm going out with the guys later is a perfectly reasonable third-person use that could be gender-neutral.
@Jeff R.: Have you never seen Vermeer's Girl with the Huge Strap On? I'm pretty sure it's at the Met, but they don't display it very much...
#6: Why does the guy have a huge strap on? Is he compensating? I dozed off last night and woke to an infomercial on Comedy Central that might be of interest to him.
In nortwestern states, "you guys" is perfectly synonymous with "y'all." I submit that although "guy" equates to "man," "guys" is approximately equivalent to "mankind" with regard to masculine domination. Open to individual interpretation, according to personal baggage etc.