It seems quite likely that The Incredibles is the best traditional superhero movie ever made.
I am particularly in awe of the multihero fight scene at the end, which is staged and choreographed as well as any comic I can think of to compare it to. None of the rest of the movie is lacking, either. Stories like The Incredibles are why I read superhero comics. (I also recommend the scene where it is demonstrated how much more effective an experienced superhero is than a novice.)
Be warned: Take the PG rating seriously. In particular, there is an overt statement that the bad guys will try to kill children; there are scenes in close proximity to that warning that credibly threaten to injure or kill children.
I've used "traditional" to modify "superhero" here in contrast with "ironic", e.g. Mystery Men, and "post-ironic", e.g. The Authority (which hasn't made it into theaters yet). The Incredibles is not for a moment ashamed of the superhero genre nor its trappings; it is proud of them.
As someone recently noted, the existence of The Incredibles makes the prospect of a Fantastic Four movie rather moot: in addition to the superhero family dynamic and the three-out-of-four power pseudo-coincidence, the abstraction level of a cartoon frees us from reality's constraints; a live-action FF movie, however sophisticated its CGI, is grounded by its photography in reality in a way a cartoon never is. A cartoon frees us to respond to what the characters are doing; a live-action superhero movie forces us to respond almost as much to how it is done.
It is, of course, possible to trace much of the thematic lineage of The Incredibles back to, once again, Robert Mayer's Superfolks, in particular, the dissatisfaction of the middle-aged superhero and the depiction of an emotionally-mature adult relationship. Elements of the plot are remarkably similar to elements of Busiek's Astro City storyline Tarnished Angel.
If I had one storytelling concern, it would be that the way the family responds to the kids is virtually a stereotype of the early studies on classroom attention, i.e., almost all the attention, good or bad, is on the boy while the girl gets by on her own.
Brad Bird, director of The Incredibles and The Iron Giant, clearly loves superhero comics almost as much as we do. (I am still in awe that the thematic climax of the latter is the single word "Superman".) I fervently hope that he continues to produce work of this quality with these sensibilities.
The Incredibles gets my highest recommendation.
The end of The Iron Giant actually made me cry.
Just THINKING of the Iron Giant saying "Superman" at the climax brings tears to my eyes.
Incredibles, for all its greatness, doesn't really have a moment of that power. Although the "whole family is together at the end of the BEST CHASE SCENE EVER" scene is of the type.
The Incredibles was a spectacularly fun movie that will surely make a bazillion dollars for Pixar and Disney. Superfolks definitely sprung to mind while watching it since I pretty much pictured the main character of the book exactly as Mr. Incredible.
I don't know that I particularly remembered Tarnished Angel, so much as Hank Pym in Shooter's (?) Avengers attempting to destroy his own evil menace robot to redeem himself.
I can't compare this movie to Iron Giant. They're just two different beasts that I connect with on different levels. The other was permeated with a sadness and wasn't trying to be a comedy.
Not only do Mr. Incredible, Elasti-Girl, and Violet map to Ben, Reed, and Sue, but the first power the baby manifests is to "flame on!"
I hate to say it, but I agree that the FF movie now has a big hill to climb. Not quite a Shark Tale vs. Finding Nemo-sized hill, but close.
By the way, I know DC's lawyers had something to say about an Elasti-Girl named Helen Parr (as opposed to Rita Farr), but what about "The Dash" doing all the classic Flash riffs, and Violet with her not-quite-invisible forcefields? Any attorneys involved there?
Ralf, you're probably right that the bit goes back at least to Pym.
I forgot to mention my other major concern with the plot, namely, what were the supervillains doing while the superheroes were in hiding? You'll note as soon as the superheroes returned, so did the second supervillain.
And, Dave, while the chase scene was in fact a terrific action set piece, a little traitorous part of my mind kept wondering why Dash kept running through jungle paths wide enough for the chase vehicles. As I noted, in that chase, the reunion's biggest score for me was first seeing the novice heroes struggling but basically holding their own in a tough fight, and then seeing the experienced heroes show up and kick immediate and total ass, without showing off or showing up the kids. There's just a split second held-frame of the family striking a pose in that scene, confidently awaiting their attackers, that's probably the closest the movie gets to "Superman".
What a great movie. Pure entertainment; it's feather-weight, but great entertainment. Iron Giant is better art, but its deep melancholy and sacrifice make it less fun.
I could defend a lawsuit in which DC tried to enforce its "Flash" trademark fairly trivially against "Dash." A) There is little likelihood of confusion. B) "Dash" is an English word meaning "to run quickly" so it is sort of like calling the character "Sprint," and then getting sued by the Southern Pacific Railroad. C) Even before DC had Jay Garrick, The New York Giants had Frankie Frisch so the name "Flash" is of dubious originality in any event.
Yeah, I agree about Dash/Flash; I was just curious.
As for the supervillains, I got the impression that they met the same fate as many of the superheroes.
i really adored the movie, but did anyone else think it was thematically vile right wing slop? i thought it was thematically the exact same movie as team america-- the whole world doesn't understand america's just trying to do the right thing when it causes destruction, but you know: the real problem are those liberals. but boy, i liked the scene with the superpowers combining...
no: i liked the movie a lot. i'm really just genuinely confused as to what the theme of the movie was because i thought i was picking up on a very political theme which... can't possibly be right, can it?
Abhay:
I think you might be projecting a bit. Team America was, I thought, relatively balanced. I didn't detect any notable bias in Incredibles (other than how the kids were treated).
I thought Bird was reasonably careful to point out that the suits against the heroes were not meritorious, i.e., that the heroes were not causing indiscriminate damage in their desire to do good (so not the same as Team America).
Ultimately, I think, this was pure entertainment, with very little to say thematically.
Greg:
There's more than a little implication that the heroes were still active enough to keep the supervillains down. In fact, it seemed almost like a Tick setting, with lots and lots of superheroes and almost no supervillains, even before the forced retirement. Most of the stuff we saw Mr. Incredible deal with was normal people, either committing crimes or getting into normal trouble.
As for "paths wide enough for pursuit," they weren't wide enough. Hence the buzzsaws on the craft, making the path wide enough unless they managed to hit too low on the trunk or hit stone (which they did a lot of). Kinda like the Mach 5 going through a forest, but paying attention to stumps.
Comments on comments on comments:
I didn't think Violet got slighted in the family dynamic. Bird has said that all of the Parrs had powers that resembled their roles in the family. (i.e. The Dad must be strong, Moms are pulled in 1000 directions, little boys are hyper, etc). She was a stereotype, but then, they all were. Anyway, if anyone changed the most, it was her. She got control of her powers, stopped whining, and asked the cute boy out.
As for villains - there didn't seem to be any _super_ villains. (Though I don't recall if the discussions about capes with Edna or Bob and Lucius' chat about 'monologuing' refered to any powered villains.) None of the villains had powers - they were all guys with technology or normal criminals.
As for left/right bias, I think it's something you'd have to take into the theater with you. Yeah, you can read it as "those darn trial lawyers are keeping heroes from doing their jobs." But you could also read it as "whitebread America is forcing a colorful subset of society to 'act straight' so they don't feel threatened." (Oh God, does this mean there will be Mr Incredible / Frozone slash?) [shudder]
i really adored the movie, but did anyone else think it was thematically vile right wing slop? i thought it was thematically the exact same movie as team america-- the whole world doesn't understand america's just trying to do the right thing when it causes destruction, but you know: the real problem are those liberals.
Not really, but then I didn't get that message out of Team America either. The whole point of that movie, stated very bluntly at the end, was that both "sides" needed each other. It in no way glorified the wonton destruction caused by the team.
This movie was great, and it certainly satisfied my desire for a Fantastic Four movie. While visually Dash was not the Human Torch, for all practical purposes plotwise he was in terms of what his powers enabled the family to do. Of course, Syndrome was not a pefect Doctor Doom, but the arrival of the Mole Man at the end warmed my heart. 4 stars.
There was no political commentary in the movie.
And while you could not see any previous super-villains in the movie, I just assumed there had been. I'm fairly sure during the scene when Frozone and Mr Incredible talked about old times that Frozone mentioned a previous battle with a super-villain.
How come no one has mentioned all the obvious Watchman references? I can name 3 off the top of my head.
How come no one has mentioned all the obvious Watchman references? I can name 3 off the top of my head.
Probably because people are referencing Superfolks instead? ;-)
Rick, you just invoked a demon. Thanks a lot.
gee, i don't know there's nothing there thematically. there usually is something there; i was really just left confused as to what it was, or at the least, what the point of all that dialogue about how "if everyone's special, noone is" was (and basically that bit where the kid complains in the car about how how schools are wrong to promote equality because it suppresses individuality)? maybe that's not a right wing or a left wing idea, but i was just left confused and sort of repulsed by a couple moments here and there, and i'm not sure what it was i was picking up on...
like, the big climactic moment of evil for Syndrome is when he proclaims that when he's done, nobody will get to be a superhero because he'll create a state of equality for people... which... is a bad thing ... why?
i mean, yes, absolutely i'm reading too much into it, but ... why was that stuff there and what was it saying?
i loved the movie though, neocon-tastic or no. i loved how it really focused on making the powers seem like a lot of fun (which i don't often get with most of these movies, about ten minutes of the first spiderman aside)...
like, the big climactic moment of evil for Syndrome is when he proclaims that when he's done, nobody will get to be a superhero because he'll create a state of equality for people... which... is a bad thing ... why?
Because he's killing supers to get there and doing it for selfish reasons, so that people will worship him as their savior.
The "everyone will be super, so no one will be super" is just sort of a puppy-kicking last jab at Mr. Incredible. Not only has Syndrome killed a bunch of heroes, not only will he kill the Parr family, but he will also symbolically kill the super-ness that was at the heart of Bob's identity.
Or did you miss the HUGE theme that being ordinary was just killing Mr. Incredible? Synapse sure didn't.
That theme being rebelled against is the idea people need to conform to mediocrity and deny their own talents and abilities just so other people do not have to feel inferior. We once celebrated excellence, now we celebrate conformity. We are living in a politically correct era that fosters a variety of false self-esteems at the expense of actual accomplishment. The "equality" being promoted is not that of giving everyone the same opportunity to make the most of their gifts, but a system of oppression designed to deny them using their gifts.
Chris, your comments make the best possible case that Abhay's take on the film is absolutely valid.
So the argument would seem to be that the theme of the movie is at odds with the theme of the short. I liked the short better than the movie, actually. Very Seussian.
Harrison Bergeron, anyone?
"Not only has Syndrome killed a bunch of heroes, not only will he kill the Parr family, but he will also symbolically kill the super-ness that was at the heart of Bob's identity."
oh, it works on a CHARACTER level, sure. probably greg's right and that's probably the only way it was intended or makes sense because ... the alternative's just too weird-- the jealous weakling destroying the exceptional strong person who society/conformity is holding back?? i don't know i want to get all fountainhead-y when i go see a pixar movie...
and i've really tried to emphasize that it really is secondary to what i really feel is just an as good as it gets superhero movie/animated flick. superb timing on the jokes...
Then I guess the divide is that I don't see how the theme is a political one.
It's like saying being against people kicking puppies is political. It's just so basically wrong I don't see how anyone can support it.
But the discussion is taking the movie away from its actual plot. Mr Incredible didn't fight Syndrome because Syndrome wanted to give people proxy super powers by technology thus "negating" his own "specialness." He fought him because he was killing people. If he fought Syndrome simply because Syndrome would take away his uniqueness, then yes, the theme would be political.
The problem Dash had was not that he wanted to deny others their opportunity to exploit their gifts. Conceivably, students like him with a talent for music, math, leadership, or other gift were not being denied. Nor did he think they should be denied because he was. The problem was that he was specifically singled out from using his own gifts and thus deny him his individuality.
The hidden theme to all of this is that one must learn the best way to utilize one's gifts. At the end of the movie we see this. 1 - People with gifts must be able to express them. Which Dash does once he becomes a superhero. 2- Gifted individuals must use this to serve a greater good (being a superhero) rather than selfish attempts at gratification (beating people in a race or Syndrome's attempt at self-aggrandizement).
In fact, the difference between how Dash and Syndrome deal with the same theme shows how one way leads to diaster while the other is to good.
Thus I do not see any political agenda behind it.
But that does not mean I may not see a political agenda in a complaint about it.
That's funny, Chris, because your explanation of the theme just seven hours earlier was so laden with empty political catch-phrases and buzzwords that it itself constituted a political argument, of a sort. Which again would imply there was something there in the movie to discuss.