Only if the brawl is based on the equivalent of Marquis de Queensbury rules does the Pre-Crisis Earth-1 Superman stay up anywhere near the top. If "below the belt" attacks are allowed, there's no way that he can take out everyone capable of making, summoning, or going-out-quickly-and-getting some Gold Kryptonite before one of them manages to do it...

Actually, there probably is, since he'd just throw a single punch that vibrates the entire world population into an alternate universe or something...

God damn it, we are Usenet.

Hell, Color Kid can turn Blue Kryptonite into Gold in an instant. And any cut-rate magician can take down Kal-El in about 1.5 seconds.

The really high-end Marvel mystic figures--e.g., the Living Tribunal--put the Silver Age Spectre to shame. But they're not, strictly speaking, superheroes; Adam Warlock is, and Warlock would quickly beat Kal-El, assuming he's willing to use the Soul Gem. (I'm not even going to discuss the possibilities of various other Infinity Gems; Thanos with all six has to finish at the top, because he literally had the power to make his thoughts reality and, by that point in his career, had the speed and training to take full advantage of that.)

I'm also not sure there's any reason to believe that the Silver Age Superman is more powerful than Bates's Captain Atom or the Japanese Dr. Light or Wildfire.

I have a separate piece on superhero fight scenes that I wanted to post. Maybe I'll toss it off this weekend.

What about Quasar? I think on at least several occasions he even kept Galactus at bay for longer than a few minutes.

Of course, you realize that Batman as written by Grant Morrison has a super-secret plan to enable him to take down all the other superheroes and win the brawl.

The full-on Spectre can use God's own omnipotence, and he is definitely a superhero, so he beats, as you say, the Marvel anthropomorphic personifications, because they don't show up for the fight.

And, see, the curious thing about two-bit magicians taking out Superman is that, well, they don't. Even though he's vulnerable to magic, he still readily beats them.

As for the other character Kevin mentions, Captain Atom would get blasted out of the fight as soon as an energy discharge hit his temporal bounce limit; the Japanese Dr. Light never had anything to suggest she was in Kryptonian-class; and Wildfire, who is uncontroversially in Kryptonian-class, well, can you really say that if they fought, there'd be any doubt that Supes would wipe him out?

Basically, the prevailing myth of the DC universe, especially pre-Crisis, is that Superman is the tops of the top, the tower of Pisa, the smile on the Mona Lisa. The question shifts up a level to whether the DC universe's best can beat the best of somewhere else, and by that metafictional standard, there's a very solid argument that he can.

Well, it's a question of how to beat him. Wildfire has nothing in his bag of tricks that's even going to break Kal-El's skin, so he's going nowhere.

On the other hand, the Gold-K weakness is critical. (If Dr. Light can emulate any form of radiation including various Kryptonite radiations, then that could be her way in.) The Silver Age gave Kal too big of an achilles heel to avoid; someone's going to eventually hit it.

(It's always struck me as odd to have introduced a weakness in the character so devestating that there is no way to use it in an honest story, but that's just what they did, and that's what's going to knock him out of any honest brawl.)

Specify no Gold-K/no Red-K, and he'll do well. Leave those options availible, though...

As in all things, it's all about the timing. Firestorm (classic Raymond/Stein fusion) could, for instance, turn pre-Crisis Superman's clothes to Kryptonite (gold or green). OTOH, the Hulk (green version, for arguement's sake), would pound Firestorm into goo. And Superman would then turn Hulk into goo. (ref: Superman/Spider-Man-2)

In a random brawl, the first "round" where everyone tries to pound the person next to them into paste will massively change the final outcome. Folks with good "I can beat X but not Y" powers will get pounded quickly, while the folks with all-around good powers will last longer. (Assuming they don't randomly run into someone who can hit their weakness.)

And speaking of gold-K, how the heck did Superman learn what Gold K did?

It took a few seconds of Googling, but Bob Rozakis, the Answer Man knows all:

Coming along in 1962 was Gold Kryptonite, which wasn't deadly per se but DID permanently strip Kryptonians of their super-powers. Its first appearance was in an Imaginary Tale (ADVENTURE #299) but it became canon just three months later when the embittered Quex-Ul was exposed to the element (SUPERMAN #157). WORLD'S FINEST #159 (1966) added the ominous detail that the effect radius of Gold K is a mere two feet. The origins of this variation may have been tied to a mysterious green comet that predated Krypton?s explosion and which would also permanently erase super-powers (SUPERMAN #172). How does one tell Gold K from regular gold? "There are telltale signs for those in the know," asserts the letter column in JIMMY OLSEN #96. "For instance, Gold K crackles and pops. Can ordinary 24-carat gold do that?"

God, I should hate things like this -- it's the ultimate in geekdom. But I can't resist!

The only way to beat Lobo is to be nice to his dolphins. Or trick him. I'm totally serious, by the way. Let the pooh-poohing commence.

(I don't even like Lobo, and here I am defending his power. What have I become?)

The winner is Brainiac 5, because he's drinking Kono juice in the tropics, while they all beat the daylights out of each other.

The Spectre trumps all comers on a power basis, including anyone we're going to call a superhero in the Marvel universe. The problem is that he has a speicific mission statement, and beating up Superman is not on it.

The most powerful heroes in the DCU are Spectre, Dr. Fate, Swamp Thing, Superman, the Marvel family, Vartox, Dev-Em, Mon-El, and Duplicate Boy.

The most powerful heroes in the Marvel universe are Sentinel (I guess), Dr. Strange, Thor , Beta-Ray Bill, Prof. X and Magneto.

It depends who's writing it, but I don't think anyone in Marvel is really a match for Steve at his peak, and if we assume Kal will come out on top, Steve can take him down. Duplicate Boy should be able to beat Supey, but I don't know what he'd do against the good doctor. Dr. Fate does magic, but I don't think he's been shown to rival Strange. The Spectre's powers are sort of mandated by his mission statement. Cue the ELO "Straaaaange magic..."

Now, there's more to the world than DC and Marvel: who else?

I don't see anyone on the Charlton or Archie or Dell rosters who could give Kal a fight or Steve or Duplicate Boy.

Thermo-Man from the BBC sitcom "My Hero" is pretty goddam tough. I still think Steve could take him.

Brain Boy would be able to give Steve one hell of a fight but he'd probably lose to Kal.

I say Dr. Strange.

C'mon guys, other than Spectre and possibly Dr. Fate, it's pre-Crisis Mon-El in a walk in the DCU. Remember, he doesn't have either the red sun or single substance weaknesses as long as Brainy's serum holds up, and only Element Lad knows about and has the power to affect the serum (OK, so Chemical King probably does as well). Mon just has to get his hands on Kal to super-speed him into a red sun system, or can pelt him with super-speed thrown Kryptonite from a distance (and remember, Kryptonite's one invulnerability is to air friction. No, I'm not kidding).

I do think if he's given time to prep and research who he'd be facing, Brainiac 5 would be a significant dark horse.

Mon looks good on paper, but he's a lover, not a fighter; he just doesn't have the will to win.

Gorilla Grodd wins.

Why?

Because he is a Gorilla.

A gorilla that talks.

A talking Gorilla wiht MENTAL powers.

Serioulsy though, couldn't the Kyle Rayner do some damage to Superman by just whipping up some Green K with his ring? Hal did it WAAAAY back in DCCP #26.

Kevin: "Hell, Color Kid can turn Blue Kryptonite into Gold in an instant. And any cut-rate magician can take down Kal-El in about 1.5 seconds."

Which is 1.499 more than they'll have. The speed factor and the sheer sun-juggling scale of the pre-Crisis Superman's powers mean you have to like any Kryptonian or Daxamite contenders on the DC side.

...I hate myself.

Grodd's not a superhero, RobB; he's not in the brawl.

What about the Silver Surfer? I'd put him near the top of the Marvel hero heap--even above Thor. I'd also label Adam Warlock a dark horse--between virtual immortality (like Phoenix, dying is his power) and his scheming nature, I think he could make it near the end. If Thanos counts as a hero (which I suppose he shouldn't--he's defended the universe plenty, but...), I'd expect him to wink at Adam before the fight begins and end up one of the final two.

I wouldn't give Quasar much of a chance. I love the guy, but...no.

Am I the only one here who's much more attached to Marvel than DC?

Oh, and Marc--I'm here because it's Usenet, circa 1996. Brings back fond memories.

Damn loopholes.

Well, sure, we're assuming that either there are enough combattants that Kal can't take down _enough_ major (Gold-K-type) threats in those 1.5 seconds, or that some of the other Kryptonian/Daxamite scale people and/or Speedsters are bright enough take it in their own initiative to actively keep some of those K-threats in the fight long enough to matter.
Also, Kal-El can't use anything near the full range of his powers around so many fragile lesser heroes on account of the whole 'won't kill' business.

Of course, the question of "exactly who is standing particularly close to Leech when the fight starts" is going to make a huge difference in the outcome...

This is going to be the new Snapper Carr thread, isn't it?

Royal Brawls are always tricky, because they allow both ganging up and hiding in the corners. Look too much like a threat, and you get taken down early by a coalition of the scared ****less. Look like you're not worth the time, and you may last until near the very end.

The trick is to have the right kind of powers to let you take down the likely upper range survivors (who are going to be the guys taking down the Daxamites and former Galactus Heralds), be tough enough to survive the collateral damage, but inoffensive enough to not get targeted until the endgame.

Sue Storm might be a good candidate, but enough people know she's dangerous to target her early on. Magic-users with good sneakiness are probably the best bet, or ninja types with defense-bypassing powers or skills. But they'd better have ways to totally avoid explosive attacks, since there's a good chance one of the heavy hitters will just go nova when the bell rings in order to clear the field of all the smallfry.

Well, sure, we're assuming that either there are enough combattants that Kal can't take down _enough_ major (Gold-K-type) threats in those 1.5 seconds...

"Fearing that awful possibility, I did the only thing I could--removed every living thing from the planet...

"With everybody safely gone, I completed my punch--"

Superman #248, March 1972. Gotta like the pre-Crisis Clark on this one.

And of course, that story technically came out after Superman's powers were cut in half. If the Weisinger-era Superman were involved in this royal rumble he would push a couple of stars around, then invent a special kryptonite hat that removes the concept of evil from the universe, then he would wink and reveal that the whole battle was a scheme to fool Lois Lane. Surprisingly, all the other superheroes were in on it.

Okay, Dave has some good points, and the pre-Crisis Superman is going to go early. Silver Surfer is powerful, but he can have his power drained, and GL's are vulnerable to yellow and wood. The Spectre is vulnerable to his boss stripping his powers, though if he has permission to join in, he probably wins because big target or not, I don't see what anyone else does to stop him. Dr. Strange too is a big target whom nobody can really hit. Duplicate boy is third, but the real dark horse here is Deadman. He can take over and arrange for the dispatch of just about everyone, except the Spectre, who's also dead and maybe Doc. Of course, the Hulk can *see* him, but so what?

Herbie Popnecker in a walk. He'd simply bop them all with his lollipop.

An instrument that has in the past defeated Satan himself.

OK, so Nemesis Kid vs. the full-on Spectre. Who'd win?

Talking of the Dragonball Z characters, I feel like giving a quick overview of the power escalation in the series as of about the two-thirds mark.

Starting level: Freezer, who can generate planet-shattering energy blasts without apparent effort. He also has flight, super-speed, and super-strength, but these are standard equipment for DBZ characters.

(Note that our starting level here is already at the top end of most superhero universes.)

We now take Freezer and have him go through no fewer than four bodily transformations, each of which confers a great increase in speed, strength, and general fighting ability.

Now we give him cyborg implants that make him even tougher.

We next introduce a new time-travelling character, Trunks, who crushes Freezer like a bug.

But wait! In his home timeline, there are two androids who beat Trunks like a rented mule!

And these androids exist in the main timeline, where they are even tougher.

Next we introduce Cell, who starts out about even with the androids, but who then absorbs both of them and multiplies his power by theirs.

There's one scene where Cell is setting up to make an attack, and he's leaking a tiny bit of energy -- not enough for him to bother about -- and this leakage shakes the entire planet.

Then one of the good guys manages to unleash his hidden power and becomes capable of taking Cell apart.

So, y'know, when the comics geeks say, "You don't realize how ridiculously godlike the Silver Age Superman was," and the anime fans reply "No, we realize that full well -- You don't realize how ridiculously amazingly godlike the DBZ characters are" they actually have a point. And I haven't even gone on to mention things like body-fusion techniques.

But what about Marvelman? Dr Manhattan? I'd say those two were *certainly* on a par with pre-Crisis Supes...

I once came across a description of a later DBZ episode where the bad guys were randomly destroying star systems in the hopes of finding their nemesis, because wherever he was hiding, they wouldn't be able to destroy. So, yeah, I'd have to say they're up there.

If you go around destroying star-systems, Jim Shooter says you aren't a superhero (though not to your face, presumably) and he wouldn't lie to me about something like that.

Btw, don't say this is Usenet Circa 1996, or we might get people here I'd rather not have to spend time deleting posts from :)

That would be why I said they were "the bad guys", yes?

Actually, I don't think anyone's specifically mention Phoenix in the brawl category yet. It is unclear if Phoenix as a superhero ever was at peak-Phoenix level though.

Sorry, Kevin. Eyes skipped over that for some reason. I might argue, however, that letting people destroy starsystems in their search for you, rather than just coming out in the open to face them might also disqualify one from superhero status

Nobody else likes Deadman's chances, huh?

The Spectre vs Nemesis Kid is no contest - NK's power level does have a limit, after all (didn't it conk out when he met Mordru or Validus, for instance)?

I've seen speculation that Lobo's power level fluctuates depending on that of his opponent (which helps explain how Section Eight was able to take him out).

How about Philip Nolan Voight, or the Quiz, or Christine 'XL' Helvin?

Who'd Win?

Quasar, as written by Mark Gruenwald could take pre-crisis Superman or anybody else, no problem. His Quasar bands can suck the energy otu of any energy based character and he is capable of building containment cells for Superman level characters (like Gladiator, or Hyperion).

But Quasar, as written by Mark Gruenwald, would not fight Supes, but talk out their differences and more likely than not, call him "sir".

Dammit, I miss his writing.

I agree that Deadman stands a good chance of making it to the end...just by hopping around. He’s wily and cynical enough to do this without calling too much attention to himself, and particularly to pick off the other heroes who could pull the same trick, and bit by bit, all the magic users that could easily target him.

You've really got to look not only at power levels but also:
1. Mental character/likely strategy
2. Likely team-ups and exploitations
3. Power level heats

Superman, of any era, is just not gonna get his bloodlust up quick enough to incapacitate every two-time loser who can generate gold Kryptonite. However, Grant Morrison's Batman (and not only that one) would do just that. Bats would be ready to take out all the minor threats to Supes and the other big guns. All the big guns winnow their own ranks, because they are too strong and unsavvy to wait and work together to kill the small fries.

The DBZ Heroes are in that big category, of course, but keep in mind that only a couple of the super powerful DBZ characters are actually heroes.

Anyway, the big guns fall to each other, and Bats is ready with whatever is needed to take out the remainder...Only he gets it in the back from Nightwing, the Midnighter, or maybe Hank Pym. For all his paranoia, Batman trusts his own powers of planning too much, and you just know that he'd partner up with someone who would betray him a little too soon. Actually, my money for this slot is on Domino:
1. She's got the requisite resilience to mental attacks,
2. She's similar enough to Talia to sucker Bats' heartstrings.

The basic heroes that are not taken out by Bats and Domino will be partnering, feuding, and dodging stray attacks from the midlevel powers and stray chunks of planets. Look to Magnus Robot Fighter to clear the ranks through his agility, machine destroying hands, and pure survivability. Also, he'd likely recruit the DNAgents and then gut them when they'd served their purpose.

Also from this category, we know Longshot is going to make it to the end, because he's too unimportant for anyone to focus on taking him out sooner.

Amongst the semi-powerful, it all depends on how much of the Green Lantern Corps gets in the fight. If there's more than five of them, the GLC groupthink will set in leaving them open to manipulation by Starhawk (from the OTHER Guardians of the Galaxy) who would use them to clear the field, taking extra care to dispose of every X-men related hero. Then Starhawk drops the Lanterns like Hal Jordan floozies. Of course, it's the Aleta Starhawk that would be ascendant, because her timing is better, and her uniform has more yellow.

If there's only one or a couple Lanterns, Starhawk is on his own. The Lanterns will do well and then get taken out by some lucky third-stringer. Batman would just point Hawk-eye's yellow arrows in the right direction, then club Clint in the back of the head with his own quiver and use the arrowheads to re-stock his utility belt. In this scenario, the Flash (Wally West) and Phoenix (Rachael Summers) reach the finals, for different reasons. Actually, these two make an interesting match-up, or hot date. In this case, all the folks with mental powers are TKO'd by Phoenix.

So Charles Xavier gets to see either all the X-men or all the mental powered folks get smeared. Oddly, the overlap between mental powers and x-affiliates encompass most of the people he cares for, especially if you toss in the Summers family, who Rachael would dispose of early for sentimental reasons. So no matter what this triggers Xavier's transformation back into Onslaught (yanking Magneto out of the fray, or from his spot on the sidelines, depending on his own hero/villain disposition at the time). Onslaught's chances are improved greatly by his late entry, and he executes all the remaining midlevel/mental/x/whoevers that are around.

So we've got:
1. Deadman
2. Domino
3. Magnus Robot Fighter
4. Longshot
5. Starhawk or Phoenix and Flash
6. Onslaught
7. Martian Manhunter

Whence comes J’onn J’onnz, you ask? He’s the the top of the bottom half of the A string, and Batman would use him as a stalking horse. Domino takes out Batman just before Batman takes out J’onn J’onnz, because she knows that she’s next. She’d also think she could polish J’onn with a simple flamethrower. Marvel characters just aren’t used to the scale of DC powers and weaknesses.

Now there are three spots left on the final ten. One of them is going to John Constantine. He’ll just walk up at the end. Anyone who disagrees hasn’t read enough Hellblazer.

One goes to Primus, from Leonard Nimoy’s Primortals. He’s probably the only hero from any universe that could rally the whole universe’s heroes behind him, ensuring him safety until the end.

Forget the rest of the Indy worlds, by the way. They’re all accounted for in the Superman level winnowing, the Deadman magician domino chain, the GLC/Phoenix/Flash round up, or the Batman/Domino dust-ups. Except, of course, for the truly D-string heroes. Bone, Cutter and the rest of the Elfquest crew, Captain Carrot, Happy the Clown, the Maxxx…The real Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles are just gonna be roaming around executing this crowd, with really disturbing blood splatters. Then Longshot throws a pebble at the back of Raphael’s head, and those four reptiles go to town on each other. Done deal.

The last spot goes to Jenny Quantum. For one thing, she’d have a lot of heroes ready to die for her. For another, this kind of cosmic brawl-to-end-all-brawls is the reason she exists. Most important, everybody else is going to have a wait and see attitude about the collected Image heroes, because they will be fully engaged. All of Rob Liefeld’s characters are going to be desperately trying to kill off the entire Image pantheon, no matter the cost, out of sheer spite.

Okay:
1. Deadman
2. Domino
3. Magnus Robot Fighter
4. Longshot
5. Starhawk or Phoenix and Flash
6. Onslaught
7. Martian Manhunter
8. John Constantine
9. Primus
10. Jenny Quantum

And here’s how it plays out:
Jenny’s in no mood to mess about so she offs the mid-field immediately. It doesn’t matter whether this includes Starhawk or Phoenix and Flash, and forget wondering how Onslaught might have survived the execution of the mental powers/x-affiliates in the first place. Forget it, they’re all gone.

Domino took out Batman right before Batman took out Martian Manhunter, so that’s where J’onn was looking. J’onn is so pumped up from fighting at his peak level that he kicks Domino’s head right off.

Longshot sees this and flips out. “So not cool!” At which point Deadman jumps in at Constantine’s behest. Because Deadman owes Constantine. Get over it.

Jenny’s ready to put Primus down. But there’s a catch—Primus and J’onn are flanking her, ready to work in perfect concert…BECAUSE PRIMUS AND J’ONN J’ONNZ ARE ONE AND THE SAME. Sorry for shouting. Jenny starts to think twice, J’imus blasts her with images of Midnighter and Apolo gutted like fish…Jenny gets her dander back up, and prepares to destroy P’ronn J’onnz…and Longshot controlled by Deadman leaps at Constantine’s direction right into the middle of them, and throws his little daggers right between all their eyes. This only annoys and distracts Jenny and J’onnimus Prime, but it’s at the critical moment when they unleash their power, and they forget to hold anything back for defense, and so poof. Longshot flambé, too.

Now all Constantine has to do is have Deadman enter Magnus and have the Robot Fighter chop his own jugular. But Boston Brand says “There’s a time to pay debts and a time to say it’s in the mail. Seeya fella!” Magnus Robot Fighter dispatches Constantine without much fuss except for a nasty cigarette burn. He looks around in triumph, and lets out a long, slow breath…

…that oddly keeps coming out. Mostly from the holes in Magnus’ ribs and throat that Mitch Shelley, the Resurrection Man, has burnt with a couple of very fine lasers.

Timing his final revival to this moment was tricky, but now the deed is done, the fight is won, and happily the armored-tunic-piercing-laser-vision Mitch was holding out for has been accompanied by tasty-Jose-Cuervo-margarita-urine. Why Domino, my dear, may I use your head for a bowl?

I'm going to go with Invisible Girl, myself. Invisible+forcefield on self, another forcefield bubble around Leech, and then spin the poor kid like a mace on a 31 foot chain as needed during the main fight...

Danny: I don't think we've ever seen anyone just overpower Nemesis Kid, as opposed to exploiting his more-than-one-person weakness or tricking him by not using super-powers at all. The Validus thing was Duplicate Boy, not Nemesis Kid.