Going biblical on you for a sec, the first 3 of Commandments are basicly establishing what about the Israelites wass different than the other people out there. Their worship of Yahweh. It's not saying that there aren't other gods out there, just ours is #1. It's very pep rally.

So Captain Marvel saying "Holy Moly" is just fine..complying to both Commandment 1&3.

Um, is this really a comics question, or a theological one? There's a lot of muddle here.

Scavenger: So what?

Chris: Up to you to decide, but the question "Where do these things come from?" should probably be taken to refer to the habits of scripters in putting the interjections in question into the mouths of the characters.

Sweet Christmas!

I thought the whole purpose of these exclamations was so the characters could show great feeling while technically avoiding taking the name in vain.

I'm with Ravensron here. Dude, it's simply an exclamation. They tend to be strange as a short hand way of giving heroes "personality." Nothing to get excited about. Move on.

Ah. Just an exclamation. So, who cares what it means. And "Pieface" is just a nickname. And if Wildfire calls Bouncing Boy "Chubbo?"

Dude, read the words and pictures post. Words are what we do here. If you don't feel that words are important, pick another entry to read, but words mean something, and "Great Scott" might be an important choice. What does it say about Superman or the writers thereof that they pick certain interjections? I think that's interesting. You are free to disagree, but "move on" implies a lack of intellectual curiosity that says more about you than it does about the worthiness of the subject matter.

As long as we're pretending to seriously apply arbitrary ancient religious codes to comic book characters, why shouldn't Reed Richards be able to legally sell his children into slavery? The Book of Exodus says it's cool.

(And yes, I fully expect Reed selling his children into slavery to be part of the next exciting installment of Marvel Civil War™, but that's not quite the point.)

On the etymology of "Great Scott." While a word origin connected to Grüß Gott is possible, is doesn't sound likely (the author of this piece identifies the phrase as "certainly American, of Civil War era at the latest"), although like most phrases of the "Great X!" variety it apparently originated as a euphemism for God.

This is all besides the point, though, since I doubt God would really notice Superman's euphemistic invocations of Scott, or Billy Batson's appeals to Moley. This is, after all, a deity sensitive enough to become offended if you type out the generic english word "god," but is tricked into thinking you aren't invoking its name if you swap out the "o" with a hyphen. A lot of power, sure, but not a lot going on upstairs... kind of a Myxyzptlk figure.

Odd, moose'n squirrell, you look very familiar....

I'm not actually applying religious codes to the comics, and the reason Reed should be prevented from selling his children into slavery is that they're a danger to the universe. With full disclosure, nobody would buy the little monsters. If he can find someone to take them off his hands, the home planet of the buyers will be gone in a day.

Right now, as I speak to you, The Bob and Tom Show bleeps the word "God."

What I am saying is that "Great Hera" might sound nifty, but did the writers really think through what it meant?!!!

I'm also saying that "Great Rao" says something about Superman. It either says "I'm a Kryptonian and I invoke the name of the God of Kryptonians!" or it says "I'm a total poser who doesn't know any better than to take the name of Rao in vain." The presence of Kandor makes that unlikely, of course. Or it says something about the Kryptonian religion. Our monotheistic religions aren't too happy about taking the name of the deity in vain. Does Krypton have no problem with it?

And why does Captain Marvel say "Holy Moly" instead of "Holy Mackerel!"

Btw, I find the German derivation more likely than the idea that soldiers decided to use Winfield Scott's name as an exclamation. "Great Sherman" and "Great Lee" aren't floating around as exclamations...

No, "Great Sherman" and "Great Lee" aren't around as exclamations, but you also got to look at the timing. Robert E. Lee and William T. Sherman made their reps during the Civil War — Lee having had his first major command when he assumed the leadership of the Army of Northern Virginia in 1862 and Sherman served mainly under Grant (who didn't that that great a reputation) until he took over command of the Western theater of operations in 1864.

In contrast, Winfield Scott was a well-established warhorse and war hero who, by the time of the Civil War, had been kicking around for nearly 50 years, from the War of 1812 on up to the Mexican War. A national hero by the end of that last war, he was the Whig candidate for the Presidency in 1852, and was general-in-chief of the Union when the Civil War began, but age forced him to give it up pretty rapidly.

I'm not saying that the derivation from German is wrong, but the Civil War origin isn't more unlikely, either.

and the reason Reed should be prevented from selling his children into slavery is that they're a danger to the universe

Really? That's the only reason? So you're cool with ordinary humans selling their children into slavery, then?

Btw, I find the German derivation more likely than the idea that soldiers decided to use Winfield Scott's name as an exclamation. "Great Sherman" and "Great Lee" aren't floating around as exclamations...

The implication is that Scott was used precisely because it sounds sort of like "God." That's why it's a euphemism. All of this was probably lost on Silver Age Superman writers, though, who knew the expression but not its origin.

When the vast majority of English-speakers say "goodbye," they're not actually consciously invoking "God be with ye," nor does the expression "God bless you" after a sneeze still used to prevent demons from possessing a vacated body after the temporary expulsion of the soul through one's nostrils. To describe characters like Superman and Captain Marvel as "blasphemers" for using expressions like "Great Scott" is silly. One can only "blaspheme" to the extent that one intends to blaspheme, and the use of expressions which have long ago lost any cultural connection to God just doesn't cut it for that purpose.

Odd, moose'n squirrell, you look very familiar

If you're trying to say something, you're going to have to be more explicit.

Okay, fine.

Terence:

First, a lesson in American military history.

Winfield Scott was a prominent general, yes, but derivations on his name involve it being a common practice to take any commanding officers name as a curse. His nickname was not "Great Scott" but "Old Fuss and Feathers." Lee was a hero since well before the Civil War. Look up Scott's history in the Mexican War and you might be surprised.

Now, secondly, I'm going to do something unusual: I'm going to tell you what sparked me on this thread, and let a great scholar tell you that you're an idiot, to wit:

I listen to NPR. Specifically, I listen to John Ciardi On Words via podcast.

Paste this URL

http://www.npr.org/rss/podcast.php?id=4986368

into your podcast software, and listen to John Ciardi call himself and me an idiot, but also listen to him dismiss you as an idiot.

I don't buy the OED thing, and I find the German derivation more likely. And if you listen to the podcast, you will see, at the end, why I felt impelled to put comics spin on the whole thing.

(The subscription is free. It's the fifth podcast down in Itunes software. The physics words podcast is also especially interesting if only for his discussion of "googol.")

Moose n squirrel:

Okay, if you're going to call yourself that, then you actually have to watch the Bullwinkle cartoons. Sheesh.

And I am not not calling the characters blaphemers. I am saying the writers probably didn't think through what their characters are doing. Actual comics address these issues all the time. Additionally, I find the use of exclamations interesting.

And yes, that's the only reason Reed should be stopped from selling his children into slavery. I am even more extreme than Posner.

Okay, if you're going to call yourself that, then you actually have to watch the Bullwinkle cartoons. Sheesh.

I wouldn't have picked the handle "Moose N. Squirrel" if I hadn't watched a ton of Bullwinkle cartoons. I thought you were making some more obscure point.

Mike:

I'm quite aware of Lee's service record, but I think you will find that he did not rise to national and popular prominence until the Civil War — which was what I was getting at. Nothing else that I've said is inaccurate: the ANV was indeed Lee's first major command; prior to that he was a lieutenant colonel whose most prominent position was Superintendent of West Point. Prior to the war, his last significant assignment was that of commanding the militia that captured John Brown at Harper's Ferry in 1859.

Neither was I inaccurate in saying that Winfield Scott was a popular and national hero at the time: what his men may have said about him is something else entirely. I never said his nickname was "Great Scott", either.

So, to explain it again in case you missed it the first time, I was not saying that the German derivation was incorrect — nor was I saying that "Great Scott" must derive from Winfield Scott. I was saying that one explanation is not any more likely than the other, but more to the point, that your dismissal of the Civil War claim on the basis that "Great Sherman" or "Great Lee" weren't floating around as exclamations was not a valid one.

I'm no etymologist, neither was I doing any research, casual or otherwise, on the origins of the term, which is why I wasn't making any claims about the provenance of "Great Scott" one way or another.

So fuck your patronizing attitude.

Thor: "By Odin, thou shalt pay for thine insolence!"

Odin: "Dude, I'm standing right here."

Terence, Terence, Terence...*sigh*

That was not patroning.

This is patronizing:

You'll notice how the name of the blog is Howling Curmudgeons? You responded to my entry with a rather pedantic and silly point about Winfield Scott's service record justifying him being called "Great Scott" when, in fact, nobody ever called him that. It's pure invention, and then you get upset when I point you to a source of John Ciardi, one of the patron saints of curmudgeons? Get a grip, dear boy.

Now, I'll throw in some condescension for free: Ciardi points out that the Winfield Scott derivation is pure invention. It's simply wrong. If you had bothered to simply follow the link I provided, you would have known that.

As for your final point, my patronizing attitude will only go past second base on the third date. And you better bring flowers and spring for dinner and a movie.

MnS: I was making kind of a joke. Whenever Rocky wouldsee Boris and Natasha he'd say "Those two look awfully familiar..."

Words are important, but I think you are off your rocker if you think the use of these exclamations has any secret or powerful meaning. That almost all the posts here are discussing arcane etymology and not anything revelatory about the comic characters demonstrates something. "Great Rao" is short hand to show Superman's Kryptonian heritage. "Great Hera" shows Wonder Woman's ties to mythic Greece. "Great Caesar's Ghost" is simply a way to give Perry White an individual persona. And so on.

I wasn't aware of what Ciardi said at the time I posted that first reply (which is that he found no evidence that Scott was ever called "Great Scott"). But I never said that the oath being derived from Scott was correct either. Once again, I was pointing out that your dismissal of "Great Scott" on the grounds there's no "Great Sherman" or "Great Lee" is not a good reason.

Now, unfortunately, I'm not proficient enough to explain that in single-syllable words, so you're own on your own.

Chris, you seem to think that I control how these posts go. I do not. You want to discuss etymology, that's up to you. You, however, are saying you don't think the subject is worth discussing at all, so why are you posting on it?
Great Hera obviously refects a Greek Heritage. Merciful Minerva goes to the Roman side. Suffering Sppho, well, that's Marston for you. What we really need is a Xena/Wonder Woman crossover.

Terence: yes, and I thought you might listen to the Ciardi article, realize you were wrong about the likelihood of the etymology, and get on with your life.

The reason, however, the Sherman and Lee references were important, apart from being a rather obvious, if unfunny joke, is that most people who espouse that theory say that it was common to use the names of commanding officers as exclamations. This practice, however, seems to to survive in the historical record except for Scott. No Lee. No Grant. No Sherman. No Jackson. No Tyler. No Wallace.

(Yes, it was a joke. Notice the elipsis at the end of the sentence.)

Now, given that, it is, in fact, a good reason not to trust that version of "Great Scott."

Now, Terence, why are you taking this so persoanlly? Eytmology and military history seem an odd area to take exceptional offense at. I mean, what are you, a Silver AGe supervillain?

Well, you've rumbled me. I'm secretly the Monarch.

Bad news, Terrence. You were going to be Monarch until word leaked. Now they've rewritten the ending and Chris is Monarch. Hope you're not too inconvenienced.

Chris as Monarch is totally unbelievable. It never ceases to amaze me the lame decisions these corporate suits can come up with. Chris has had no foreshadowing suggest that he's got the kind of megalomania necessary to become Monarch. Just because a few fanboys started speculating on a minor-league message board. Right, like Paul Levitz is going to stumble over it when he drops by to post.

Way back in the original post, Mike speculated that "Suffering Sappho" never made it past the Comics Code. Is there any evidence to back that up? I can understand that the CCA might not want to celebrate Sappho, but every time her name came up, she was suffering. It's not like she was enjoying herself or anything.

Actually, "Suffering Sappho" did get past the CCA. It was used as a replacement for the original interjection, "Holy Red-Hot Lesbians!"

If Wonder Woman exclaiming "Suffering Sappho!" was a sly tip-off as to her sexual proclivities, what does that say about the Sub-Mariner ejaculating "Suffering shad!" in the 1940s and 1950s?

....

Never mind. I don't want to know. I don't want to know.

Jason: Don't worry. Years after everyone's forgotten about the entire bait-and-switch, someone will write a storyline that shows that I was destined to be Monarch after all.

Ron: You were doing so well until you used the word "ejaculating".

The most irritating thing about that whole Monarch thing was that making Captain Atom Monarch simply means that the people planning it had never read Captain Atom's book.

In which, for example, he goes through Purgatory to be purged (aha! etymology!) of his sins; he is virtually a saint at the time Bates/Weisman leave the title. His becoming Monarch is like Francis of Assisi becoming a serial killer.

And why does Captain Marvel say "Holy Moly" instead of "Holy Mackerel!"

Cuz it rhymes?
Seriously...doesnt' that fit the tone of the Beck Captain Marvel? Kind goofy but also serious sounding?

like Francis of Assisi becoming a serial killer

Well yeah, but that's cuz you haven't read Francis of Assisi's new origin in 52 yet.
Its NU EARTH, Baby!

Well sometimes you can learn something in spite of yourself. Honestly I never gave the the subject of why certain comic characters use alternative phrases much thought. I figured it was just part of the charm of comics.
However, this article inspired me to do a google search on some phrases and well, see for yourself: http://www.biocrawler.com/encyclopedia/Minced_oaths

Yow (which I don't think is a minced oath for anything). Some of those phrases are interesting. Seeing the derivation of Blue Falcon, it's a wonder that Dynomutt hung around with him at all.

Ten commendations for lving written in stone or commincated orally by several wise men over the years - Jesus, Buddha, etc. simply because they are the hardest ones to live by ie thou shalt not kill; covet not what your best fried has ie grass is always greener (and how many times have U cheated on your partner?: honour thy parents (how well did U do that at 16?) and are they living in an old folks home because its CONVENIENT? Need I go on?

Just read about Dave Cockrum. We could go into the however many links of separation, but I'm too shaken. As a genre writer in another just moving into sci-fi guess why and privileged to know some others: May we all sigh for the loss of one who knew more and shared most and explored greatly. Tears are not enough and I am bereft of more than words

Damn, Cuz! Ya'll got me straight trippin'!