I decided to take alook at the Comicmix based on Greg's mention. The podcasts are interesting, but basically...
My fellow Curmudgeon, Rick Jones, had a response to this question which has inspired my current post. (Yes, yes, I remember the response, and Rick was posting to Usenet back then. There's a reason this blog has "Curmudgeons" in the title.)
The first thing I read was a review of The Last Mimzy. It's a nice enough little movie review, I suppose, and I haven't yet seen the flick myself, but...
Yeah, I guess it is a little like "The 4400." However, it's a lot like the classic Lewis Padgett (or C.L. Moore/Henry Kuttner, if you prefer) short story "Mimsy Were the Borogoves." That's not surprising, however, as the movie is based upon the story.
You'd think the reviewer might have mentioned this, if he had known. The movie isn't derivative of a tv show, it is an adaptation of a classic science fiction story which was famously reprinted in the The Science Fiction Hall of Fame vol. 1. I wouldn't care, but the site bills itself as "ComicMix is a site for readers who enjoy all types of fantastic media: comic books, television, movies, video games and more." You'd think their writers would know at least as much about Science Fiction as some random idiot on the internet.
Well, okay, perhaps I'm nitpicking, and I don't know whether or not the movie credits indicated the sorce material, or if the critic went to IMDB or the movie's website to do research. (I had to sit through the review twice, since it's also on a podcast.)
And then we have this insightful column on the importance of personal hygiene in the gaming community. His beef was that some of the attendees at I-Con had body order. This resulted in the young actresses he was with laughing at them.
Oh, gee, people at a con, in an enclosed space filled with science fiction fans on their off time developed a body order. Hmm, I wonder if I go to a bar in New York with these same actresses if any of them will light up a cigarette. (Actually, are you still allowed to smoke in New York?)
Not that any of those actresses would condescend to be seen in public with me. After all, I'm a science fiction fan.
Anyway, a response:
No, you idiot, attractive women are not laughing at them because of their hygiene. They are laughing at them because they are stupid, shallow actressses who don't realize they are at a crowded con with limited ventilation, and are not used to being in such a place, and their guide, a stupid, shallow columnist, doesn't realize that like all crowded venues with limited ventilation (rock concerts, sporting events, gyms, night clubs) such a circumstance will result in some body ordor issues regardless of the deodorants used. Especially on the second day of a con with people engaged in the physical activity of live action role-playing. Your complaint is like coming in with a group of actresses to half-time of a high school basketball game and complaining about the odor in the locker room.
I take some concern about my personal appearance on a basic level. It's a requirement for my work. Now, several Howling Curmudgeons happened to see me at Wizard World one year when I came directly from work. I was wearing a tailored Italian charcoal/burgundy pin suit. At least one beautiful woman (fellow curmudgeon, Sidne Gail Ward) laughed at me. She insisted that I dress the same way the next day so she could take a picture. In fact, everyone laughed at me.
Why? Because at a con you dress for comfort.
I do find the choice of subject matter for the column to reflect an interesting attitude toward the audience of his website, however.
Michael Davis' column on his blacks-in-comics con panel is interesting. I enjoyed it.
Elayne Riggs. Well, you all probably know about her stuff, so you don't need me to tell you anything.
Martha Thomases has a wonderful piece on comics and how they should be used to change our thinking. I do wish she'd mentioned editorial cartoons, however.
John Ostrander wrote a column about tv commercials, which was okay, I guess.
Posted by Mike Chary at March 25, 2007 9:26 AM
The reviewer compared The Last Mimzy to The 4400? And didn't mention the Padgett story? (Which is not by any means concealed; I don't know how prominent it is in the film's credits, but when I said "That sounds like", I was able to verify the origin online in a matter of seconds.)
(I check the link.)
OK, he goes down on the "too ignorant to pay attention to" list. (Six bits says he shows up here and sarcastically says "Well, excuuuuuse me for not being intimately aware of every sixty-year-old obscure SF story. Unlike you, I have a life.")
Nah, he might just have accidentally omitted it. Or he might just not have known about the IMDB or that the movie would have a website, and maybe he did not get a press packet. Back when I was a reporter in the late-1990's, the movie critic didn't know about IMDB until I told him.
(In other words, no bet.)
I was going to let this slide, but since you took the time to call me an idiot, I feel compelled to respond.
Since you were not actually there when all of this happened, let me explain further. If anyone was laughing at this sub section of con attendees it was because of the odors they were producing, no other reason. And I specify sub section because the vast majority of con attendees were perfectly nice to be around, in this respect and all others. It was just this one group we encountered, which was why it stood out so starkly.
The actress in question was a genre actress. She has been going to conventions for at least a decade, she is not unfamiliar with fans and genuinely likes them. She's also used to dealing with people who have been in hot wool costumes latex, and furs under hot stage lights for twelve hours at a time, and the odors such can create. This was way beyond that.
As for me, I've been going to conventions for almost three decades. I'm not unfamiliar with fan habits. I admit to being confused by the lack of bathing though. Incidentally, this encounter was on the first night of the convention, not the second. Even if it was after three days, so what? Most grown-ups bathe on a regular basis. I would like to think that you do.
These folks just stank. And since calm reason doesn't seem to make some folks understand that their habits are offensive I figured I'd appeal to their libido.
On one last note on the topic: it is a commonly known in fan circles that LARPers often exhibit this behavior. Why else would John Kovalic have made the cartoon in the first place? Frankly, this behavior is widespread and something I simply don't understand, although it is blessedly getting somewhat rarer.
As for not mentioning "Mimsy Were The Borogroves", the average viewer of this movie isn't going to know about this film, they're going to know about The 4400. For that matter, the average viewer of this film is not going to be receiving a press packet either. Expecting people to respond to this film based on how they feel about the short story is short sighted.
I was going to let this slide, but since you took the time to call me an idiot, I feel compelled to respond.
Speaking as a former journalist, never a good move...
Since you were not actually there when all of this happened, let me explain further. If anyone was laughing at this sub section of con attendees it was because of the odors they were producing, no other reason. And I specify sub section because the vast majority of con attendees were perfectly nice to be around, in this respect and all others. It was just this one group we encountered, which was why it stood out so starkly.
Oh, I wasn't there, so I couldn't possibly know what it was like? Or I wasn't there so I have no legitimate opinion? Or I wasn't there, so I need more information?
Dare I point out that the one group that you speak of was the subsection involved in physical exertion? I mean, if you go to a courtroom, you'll find that the in-custody prisoners usually have a lower standard of personal hygiene than the lawyers as well.
The actress in question was a genre actress. She has been going to conventions for at least a decade, she is not unfamiliar with fans and genuinely likes them. She's also used to dealing with people who have been in hot wool costumes latex, and furs under hot stage lights for twelve hours at a time, and the odors such can create. This was way beyond that. As for me, I've been going to conventions for almost three decades. I'm not unfamiliar with fan habits. I admit to being confused by the lack of bathing though. Incidentally, this encounter was on the first night of the convention, not the second. Even if it was after three days, so what? Most grown-ups bathe on a regular basis. I would like to think that you do.
Most grownups do bathe on a regular basis, but I dare say that on the third day of a convention your will run into the same sorts of things you run into on Superbowl Sunday after a week leading up to the game. Or in a sports bar in Atlanta next Monday: people are there for one purpose and are a touch obsessed.
These folks just stank. And since calm reason doesn't seem to make some folks understand that their habits are offensive I figured I'd appeal to their libido.
Gee, why would anyone think this man a shallow idiot?
Um, sir, I realize you have no reason to substitute my judgment for your own, but might I submit that in the context of a live action roleplaying game or a college basketball tournament or a Civil War re-enactment or many other fields of human endeavor libido is not the primary characteristic of the human animal?
Appeal to libido seems an odd tact to take with LARPers at a con, in any event, rather like appeal to reason with online columnists. There are qualities which don't appear to flourish within certain fields of human endeavor.
As for not mentioning "Mimsy Were The Borogroves", the average viewer of this movie isn't going to know about this film, they're going to know about The 4400. For that matter, the average viewer of this film is not going to be receiving a press packet either. Expecting people to respond to this film based on how they feel about the short story is short sighted.
This point of view is just pig ignorant and silly. I was a movie critic for several years. Part of the job is contextualization. "Mimsy were the Borogoves" is a famous story, and reviewing "The Last Mimzy" as though it were tired and hackneyed in comparison to "The 4400" reflects a lack of sophistication on a par with criticizing the Lord of the Rings movies as a blatant Star Wars ripoff.
And I'm not criticizing the average viewer. I'm criticizing the movie columnist. The first sentence on the film's offical website talks about the short story.
Glenn: You seem to be taking the position that the job of the reviewer does not include educating the reader. Indeed, that misleading the reader about the film's origin and influences is perfectly reasonable.
This strikes me as sub-optimal.
Btw, I should point out that I called someone else an idiot in my initial post. My exact invective was "some random idiot on the internet." Read it again. Who would that person be?
Mike:
No, you idiot, attractive women are not laughing at them because of their hygiene.
You used idiot more than once, and this one is absolutely aimed at Glenn.
No, Greg, you idiot, I meant I called someone else -- as in "other than Glenn, but in addition to Glenn" -- an idiot. You get to be the only idiot in this comment, though.
I absolutely agree with Mike and Greg on the fact that a good reviewer will provide his or her readers with important information. Glenn, you're right that the average viewer won't have the Mimzy press packet -- but doesn't that make it all the more important to educate the reader on the pedigree of the movie. I'm all in favor of putting things into a context readers will understand (i.e. comparing it to the 4400), but to make that comparison without explaining that this is a take on the premise that draws on a classic science fiction story (which in turn draws on one of the classic works of 19th century literature) does the reader of the review a disservice.
You may disagree with that -- you may feel that reference to the Padgett story distracts a potential reader -- but that's not the objection you've raised. The objection you've raised is more along the lines of "my readers are ignorant louts who don't care about some story from sixty years ago," and I find it's never useful to presume readers are uncurious.
As to the point of con hygeine, I mostly agree with Mike. Yes, Glenn's right -- there are some smelly people at cons. Some of them are smellier than they should be. And yes, I wish everyone would bathe and shower each morning of the con, and it's clear that some people don't. But is that an excuse to laugh at them?
It seems there's something inherent in human nature that makes people want to single out the "nerd" -- however that's defined -- for derision. This is just another example of it. It's not laudable. The actresses you were with were basically saying "Ha ha! Those are nerds!" and in your column, you were basically saying "Stop being such a nerd!" But let's face it -- if you're reading Comicmix or this site (let alone writing for them!), you're probably a nerd by most people's definitions. So what? If a group of "cool people" told me that I should stop reading comic books and posting to the internet if I wanted to get laid more, I would think they were boorish louts. And while I don't know Glenn well enough to say whether he is a boorish lout, I will say that his "appeal to libido" stank of boorishness.
It's a well-known fact among congoers that a small portion of the attendees slack off on their hygeine during the show, if not in general.
Frankly, the only excuse I can conceive of is that they're in minimal accomodations and sleeping on someone's couch, and maybe didn't get a chance to shower one day of the weekend.
I doubt this applies to most of them.
I'd certainly be surprised if any attendees hoping to make professional contacts made this mistake. Even the couch-surfers.
I don't really see the point in defending the stinky. It doesn't take long to shower, and I doubt many attendees are sleeping at the bus station.
Mixed vibes. Yes, at the beginning of the con day I could see it as semi-legitimate to complain about body odor.
At the end or middle of a day in the middle of the con (He said they were exting through the LARPers) I think it is another thing entirely. The LARPers engage in physical activity. Their laundry facilities at the con are probably limited, though I agree bringing a change of costume is perhaps an idea, but I don't think people inside a con engaged in physical activity can be expected to maintain perfet appearance.
Mike--
You don't think it's too much to ask con-goers to bring three or four clean sets of clothing, and to bathe, use soap and shampoo, and deodorant every day?
And who do you hang around, that gets con-stinky after a sole day of exercise? If they showered with soap and used deodorant, they'd get sweaty, and smell a bit of sweat--but that's not con-funk, which is clearly what's being complained about here.
There are some simple steps that con-goers can use to avoid being rank. For some reason, a percentage of them refuse to use them.
Jess, I suppose it depends on when you enconter them. I played sports in high school and college and did martial arts and currently belong to a gym. If you saw me hours after that activity in a restaurant, I would have showered and changed. If you meet up with me in the locker room or the gym or the playing field immediately after or during the activity, I don't think you can reasonably expect me to be in perfect shape. The columnbist said he was escorting the actresses out of the con. The people they encountered could very well have been in the middle of the their activity or immediately after the activity headed back to the hotel to do whatever.
I mean. Michael Jordan used to shower and change before he talked to the press...
Mike--
But as you well know, there's a substantial and instantly recognizable difference between the scent of men and women who've exercised and not showered, and the odor of men and women who haven't bathed for days on end. Con funk is the latter, and it's all too common at cons.
Now, maybe the actress in question isn't capable of that discernment, but you and I are.
It is right, I think, to say that her comments smack more than a little of oh-let's-laugh-at-the-nerds, and the back of my hand to them and to her for making them. Nonetheless, one of the reasons I've come to hate cons (and I include the American Library Association annual conference, which I go to every year professionally, as well as other academic conferences) is the...I can't even call it "lack of hygiene." It's more of a profound disrespect for everyone within smelling range that is all too common among con attendees.
None of the guilty will be reading this, of course, but on the off chance they are: if you think you don't smell, guess again.
Well, to be fair, we don't have her comments. We have the columnist's comments. I don't mean to defend "con funk" as such. I do detect, however, a remarkable air of provincialism in the original column.
Next week I am going to a White Sox game. I assure you I will bathe and so forth before going, but if the Chicago weather gods decree that it will be 80 and humid, I assure you I will sweat like a big fat guy in 80 degree weather.
I would bet a shiny new dime that at least some of those actresses smoke, and I will take con funk over that every day.
That said, if the actresses or the columnist want to come to a Curmudgeons con at Manny's to explain themselves, I can promise no LARPers, and Jason will buy them a knish.
My kid has Asperger's Syndrome, and there's discussion among AS parents about how to reinforce the idea of showering on a daily basis. My kid only bathes as often as he does because I nag him but if he were off at a con by himself for a weekend, it would never occur to him to bathe. Maybe there were a lot of folks with AS there?
Btw, I was a huge fan of your husband's writing.
As to your general point:
It's possible. The problem with AS is that the symptoms are basically the same as the symtpoms of being a jerk. The nice thing about there being an actually syndrome is it's treatable. There's no treatment for being a jerk. It's been suggesed that I have Asberger's, but I suspect I'm just a jerk. (Evidence, well, I'm typing this and your kid has Ausberger's which is probably insensitivity on a massive scale, but I'm probably just a jerk.)
AS (which I've also been accused of) (erroneously) might well be common in comic, sf, and rpg conventions. Librarians? Not so much, alas.
Joel Hahn and Michael Schiffer are both librarians.
I've actually met quite a few librarians with some variation of autism or Asperger's Syndrome, either through my work at my city's library, or through my work with the local ARC.
"I absolutely agree with Mike and Greg on the fact that a good reviewer will provide his or her readers with important information. Glenn, you're right that the average viewer won't have the Mimzy press packet -- but doesn't that make it all the more important to educate the reader on the pedigree of the movie"
It was a podcast there were no readers. And the 4400 reference was I believe to give a frame of refernce not to mislead.
If the actress does smoke, her sense of smell is probably dulled and that means those LARPers really really stank. And it was pointed out that the actress is a regular con goer so I highly doubt it was a laugh at the nerds, especially considering Glenn is a big nerd himself.
I took Glenn's column as humor, but he's not too off base saying good hygene is a step in the girl-friendly direction. My ex is a pro hockey player, he swetas for a living and even without showering after a game or practice never smelled as bad as some folks I have run across at cons.
You have gone from curmudgen into defensive lout.
Hi, Adriane. Who has gone from curmudgeon to defensive lout?
Also, as noted above, the The Last Mimzy review in this discussion is both a print review and a podcast. Not that that makes a bit of difference to the point, since a podcast's listeners are exactly the same thing as a print review's readers in this context.
Thanks for the drive-by.
Jason comes off as defensive and Mike and Greg as curmudgens. Sci fi elists too, you bitched about it here rather than commenting on it on the site. do I think that he should have mentioned the short story? Yes. Do I think that most of the reviews written sound like press release until you get to the actual bit about liking or not liking the film? Yes.
It just seems like there was alot of jumping up and down over someone saying out loud what we all know: that some folks stink horribly at cons.
You're posting rejoinders in a discussion that ended 5 months ago and I'm the defensive one? I posted here because I read about it here. I don't read comicmix.
As for some folks stinking at cons, I just reread Glenn's column and I still think it was boorish. No offense to Glenn, who I met at a con last month (he smelled like a peach, by the way) and think is a swell guy.