Maybe this can be BLAMED on an editor? Not that I'm interested in cutting Meltzer any slack, but maybe Barry was the intended target, but then someone upstairs nixed it, forcing a last minute Monarch-style change.

It's times like this that make me really appreciate the ending of the John Constantine story in Planetary. "Time to move on. Time to be someone else." And it is.

Even if we assume that Meltzer wrote the story as being about Barry, and the presence of Wally is due to last-minute editorial interference, it's still unexplained 1) why the Legionnaires wanted to resurrect Barry, and 2) how all the Legionnaires survived the lightning rod ceremony.

The JSA issues were better written, really, because it dealt with the idea of the Legion, and Johns delved into what it meant for Superman, as a boy, to be part of that group. Meltzer's portions of the story were largely plot based, and as we know, his plotting really sucks.

This is what I figure happened. They were aiming for Barry, not so much in sacrificing their own lifeforces, but to position themselves so that the lightning strike would be absorbed by one of their rods. Of course, this would be highly dangerous, so the likelihood was that the one who did get the bolt would not survive. The fact Val did was due to his reflexes more than anything else. Wally being brought back was a side effect of them wanting to catch Lightning Barry in the wand.

This, charitably, is the scenario that makes the most sense. But there are flaws, unfortunately, in this theory, because Meltzer's plotting sucks. He makes a big deal of the original Lightning Lad resurrection, he uses Lightning Lad as a code name (even though we know from the previous issues that Lightning Lad himself is alive and well, so it's not him that they're trying to resurrect). He also makes a big deal of the Blue Valley, Office, Titans Tower thing, to make it seem like it's Wally.

So while I'd like think the above is what was meant, the way Meltzer has written it makes it a flawed theory. Maybe we'll find out later.

But the bottom line is, the Lightning Saga, as a whole, wasn't very good. It was a mystery without a resolution, a not-terribly-exciting climax, and everyone seems vaguely ineffectual. In fact, it could have been told in maybe two issues, but somehow it stretched to five. For comparison, I refer you to "Earthwar" and "The Great Darkness Saga".

And what's this stupidity about Red Tornado being Wildfire's past self?

To his credit, though, Meltzer does make a remark that Val was resurrected at some point, which partially answers the "why is Val alive?" question.

I concur with the "Stay Away" assessment.

"Time to move on. Time to be someone else."

Unless your mortgage payment doubles, then it's EMO SELF HARM SPEEDBALL!

I've been pimping my own thoughts on this series all over the internet, and there's no reason why I shouldn't do it again. Basically, the Legion we're seeing in this crossover isn't really the original Legion; they're a new-multiverse post-52 Legion, and they just happen to resemble the original Legion out of pure coincidence.

It wasn't a great crossover. But there were some nice scenes in it, like Superman reminiscing about his teenage years.

Oh, and I liked Jay and Nura's byplay: "We fought Hitler, sweetie." Like Dream Girl has any real understanding of who Hitler was.

Hitler's the villain whose mind Alaktor put into Superboy's brain, at the same time that he took over Mon-El and Ultra Boy with Nero and John Dillinger, respectively, shortly before Nura joined the Legion.

(Assuming that happened to this version of the Legion, of course. :-) )

Oh, sure. I did remember that, actually. But Hitler wouldn't have the same resonance to Nura that it does for us, because Hitler was a) ten centuries before her time, b) on another planet. Hitler's the answer to a trivia question as far as she's concerned. She may know who he was, but she wouldn't really get it.

Oh, I agree-- her image of Hitler would be "minor secondary villain", somewhere south of Sugyn-- albeit with a possible associated memory that he'd been picked by Alaktor because he was a major local historical figure from somewhere around Superboy's time. (But clearly not as memorable as, say, Lex Luthor.)

The Legion was not trying to bring back the West family, that was a happy accident. Reread the ending.

Tsk. I was enjoying the JSA half of the story, but having been warned off the JLA parts by various reviews I was only planning on getting the final JLA episode simply so that I could have the plot resolution - but it sounds as though there may not be much point.

For what it's worth my take on the discrepencies in the Legion continuity has changed over the course of the story. It started off when I saw the mix-match of costumes on the commemorative statues in Superman's Fortress, and from the comments made in that issue of JSA I thought that perhaps the costumes had been picked to represent a particular Legionnaire at a particular point in time rather than the whole team at a particular point in time.

Then when I realised that the Legion characters themselves where appearing as a mix-match I wondered if perhaps this was some subtle form of 'get-of-out-continuity-nitpicking-free' trick: DC effectively giving the fans something that *looked* very much like the fondly-remembered version of the team, but skewed right from the start so that they could always claim they they weren't the Silver Age Earth-1 version of the Legion and should not be expected to be bound to past continuity. A bait-and-switch, effectively.

But now that the howlings over the poor plotting in the JLA issues are out, I'm beginning to wonder if even that much thought had gone into it.

So. =morbid-curiosity-about-an-impending-train-weck mode on= Do we have any idea how the current version of Superman having been a member of the Legion is going to stuff up the continuity of the Time Trapper's Pocket Universe?

---
Saxon Brenton Uni of Technology, city library, Sydney Australia

The Legion could very plausibly want to help Barry.

His daughter is a Legionnaire.

Um, granddaughter.

Upon re-reading, Joe is clearly right. Brainy sent the Legionnaires back in time to get the lightning; the fact that doing so led to Wally's resurrection was just coincidence.

Which means the story makes even less sense, because right up until the final scene, everyone's been talking about the lightning rods as if they worked exactly like they did way back in Adventure #312 when they were used to resurrect Lightning Lad. I also wonder why Meltzer and Johns set up an ongoing plot involving a version of the Legion that's 20 years old. Will we see this version of the Legion in Countdown (I believe Karate Kid's on the cover of next week's issue)? Will they take over the main Legion book? I guess we'll have to wait and see where -- if anywhere -- this story gets picked up.

The Legion could very plausibly want to help Barry. His [grand]daughter is a Legionnaire.

Not (necessarily) that version of the Legion, though.

Do we have any idea how the current version of Superman having been a member of the Legion is going to stuff up the continuity of the Time Trapper's Pocket Universe?

The whole Pocket Universe thing doesn't have to come into it at all. It hasn't been a part of continuity since Zero Hour. I imagine DC's only going to use it if they really want to.

The Legion could very plausibly want to help Barry. His [grand]daughter is a Legionnaire.

As Michael said, different Legion... but man, I hope that Legion still exists, and XS is one of the big reasons why. She was great.

Well, even if XS isn't in this vrsion of the LSH, the Tornado Twins are, and Iris is from the future, and maybe they needed Barry for some reason.

Btw, the notion that Hitler won' be remembered in a thousand yeas reflects historical ignorance on a massive scale. Genghis Khan, Charlemagne, Caesar, Mohammud, Hannibal. We remember people for a long, long time if they do things that impact millions of people. Nura is a very intelligent character. Jews have been endorsing the whole "never forget" thing for fifty years now. ANd Nura actualy faught Hitler. The notion that Hitler, would be remembered for less time, than say William the Conqueror or Cleopatra is somewhat bizarre.

There're a few other odd continuity bits that indicate this may be yet another continuity Legion. Brin refers to Ayla in a way that strongly implies she's dead, and Thom refers to Kal-L, not Kal-El. And Superman's history with [a] Legion is supposed to be addressed in a few months in Action (although given how screwed up the story scheduling in Action has become, I'll believe it when I see it).

Agree the lightning rods just didn't make sense. As I recall, in the original story, the rods were just used to play Russian Roulette and feed power/lifeforce into a device. When Eltro Gand resurrected Mon-El using the same device, I don't believe the lightning rod was required or used. And if the whole point was to capture a life force rather than feed one's lifeforce into a dead body, why did anyone need to be holding a rod? Just set it up on a tripod and stand back until the lightning strikes, then pick up the rod.

Oh, and another continuity bit is that Polar Boy was in the statues, but Quislet and Tellus weren't.

Mike C., the figures you mention generally lasted rather longer in power than Hitler did. But if Nura were from Earth, she might well know about him, particularly given the 20th century's importance in the birth of the superhero and space travel. (I'd guess that Gim Allon would know rather more about him. Ditto Rokk Krinn, for diferent reasons.)

But for her, this isn't like knowing about Genghis Khan or Charlemagne, it's like knowing about the major figures of 11th century China. (That is, an important place that plays a major part on the modern world stage, but whose culture isn't directly ancestral to our own, just as 20th century Earth wasn't directly ancestral to Naltor.) I'm interested enough in history that I can tell you which dynasty was in charge of China at the time, but damned if I can tell you the name of any Song emperor without looking it up.

In the 12th century, the dynasty lost half of China to the barbarian Jin dynasty, a conquest of more direct lasting effect than any of the Nazis' and probably a necessary precondition to the Mongols' later conquest of the whole country. (The southern Song actually allied with the Mongols when they conquered north China.) I can't name a single Jin general without research, and I'll bet you can't either. (Granted, Nura moved to Earth, but I suspect you could quiz a lot of American expats in Beijing before you found one who could do any better.)

There's a lot of history out there, and from the perspective of the 30th century DCU, Hitler isn't even among the more successful attempted conquerors of Earth, nor, in a world where planets are blown up, are WWII's deaths particularly notable for their number. How many people who haven't made a special study of the relevant empires remember Basil Bulgaroktonos, or Ala ad Din Muhammad the Khwarezm Shah?

Btw, the notion that Hitler won' be remembered in a thousand yeas reflects historical ignorance on a massive scale.

First time for everything, I guess; I don't recall that ever being said about me before.

Genghis Khan, Charlemagne, Caesar, Mohammud, Hannibal. We remember people for a long, long time if they do things that impact millions of people. Nura is a very intelligent character. Jews have been endorsing the whole "never forget" thing for fifty years now. ANd Nura actualy faught Hitler. The notion that Hitler, would be remembered for less time, than say William the Conqueror or Cleopatra is somewhat bizarre.

Two things.

One, we have a close-up perspective on Hitler right now that will be lost in a thousand years. His name may be remembered but the general public, non-historians, won't have any command of the details or context. He'll be just a name, maybe with some vague associations. Charlemagne might be the best comparison: about a thousand years ago, conquered a lot of Europe. A lot of people might know the name 'Charlemagne', but how many know anything he did?

Two, Nura's a teenager from another planet. She's bright, sure, but there's no particular reason she'd be up on Earth history at all.

(And when did she fight Hitler? The Alaktor thing, mentioned above? She wasn't on the team then. Was there another example?)

I'd bet on Hitler being one of the archetypal names of the 20th century, because of the Holocaust. There were genocides before, there have been genocides since, there will continue to be genocides, but the Final Solution has this distinctive air about it; I would expect a teenager of the 30th century to know the name and phrase long fter all context has dropped out of general awareness, in a way I would not expect names like Stalin and Churchill and Bush to last that long. Popular use of the Huns and Genghis Khan might suggest a path of development for the usage. (Or might not. I could be so full of what makes grass grow green that my eyes have turned brown. I don't have a lot invested in this after all, but I do find it interesting.)

I'd bet on Hitler being one of the archetypal names of the 20th century, because of the Holocaust.

Everywhere in the galaxy, though? Is Charlemagne a household name in Nepal? Do the Huns have the same resonance in Nigeria? (And insofar as they do, how much does that relate to their incorporation into European empires, where Naltor was never as far as we know ruled from Earth?) The US is very close, culturally, to England, but even so the penetration of names like King Alfred or Hengist and Horsa or Guy Fawkes isn't nearly as great. A friend of mine reported a grafitto in Ireland that read "Remember 1690!". And perhaps you do-- but do you expect a bright but non-history oriented 20ish American (not of Irish extraction) to know what iconic event that referenced? The Field of Blackbirds is, to a Serb, a national tragedy with consequences echoing down to the present; to an American it's a matter of obscure trivia.

Naltorian high schools presumably have to cover Naltorian history from the first colonists from Zerox to the present. (And, given their culture, probably a bit of the future as well.) Even if Nura took the semester-long UP History course, odds are that the focus was on those planets in the runup to and after their contact with Naltor, or events that had interstellar level repercussions. (Just as the first American students are likely to hear of Portugal-- if they ever do-- is Prince Henry the Navigator or the discovery of Brazil.)

Local wars? The Taiping Rebellion in China was less than two centuries ago and killed over twenty million people. It was a seminal event in a country that's been large and important for thousands of years, and which is now of at least passing concern to most Americans. How many bright Western teenagers-- or, for that matter, educated Western adults-- have even heard of Hong Xiuquan, who claimed to be Jesus's younger brother and who commanded an army of millions, in a war that lasted a decade and a half?

Of course, I could be wrong. Some local wars and warriors become famous out of all proportion to the scale of the action. King David, for example. Or King Arthur, insofar as he was a real historical figure. It may be that Hitler will be a household name on Naltor via its large Jewish minority (immigrant-descended, converts, or both), or the famous WWII epic holoMMO of the 2440s, or because it turns out that Wes Dodds spent an undocumented decade on Naltor in the 28th century and people grew interested in his background.

Schiffer: How many movies have been made about 12th century China? Now, how many movies have been made about WWII and Hitler? Hitler's records have been archived. We have video of the guy. You also assume thast Nura will not remember her relying on a perspective that someone who doesn't come from Earth won't remember some marginally successful European politician, which makes a sort of sense when put in that manner. I say, however, it is more reasonable that a teammate of Gim Allon and Jan Arrah might be more than a little familiar with genocidal maniacs. Hitler was one of the defining figures of the twentieth century. (And he was in power for 13 years which isn't exactly a blip on the radar. Cleopatra might have had more time in the history books, but she did not have Leni Riefenstahl making movies about her either.)

Matthew E.: Well, let me say it again, then, you have no sense of history. You just blithely assume people will forget about Hitler in a thousand years... From nothing. Charlemagne is not a good comparison, but even he is actually remembered fairly well both in legend "The Song of Roland" to popular culture "Pippen" to dozens of history books. And that is without the archive footage and factual storage we have available to us now. I can get actual footage of Hitler on the internet. As to her fighting Hitler, I recall a time travel adventure from the early 1980's/late-1970's. I could be wrong. I doubt Hitler will be forgotten in a thousand years.

Ah, but will the way Hitler is remembered in a thousand years be because Godwin's Law is still in play? : -)

Is there any reason to think that Dreamy spent more time watching 20th century black and white flatfilms than you do reading 11th century Chinese poetry? (After all, that's available on the net too-- in translation, even.)

I don't know that much about the state of the mainland Chinese film industry, so I honestly don't know how many films have been made about the conflict between the Jin and the Song. Do you? There are certainly movies about the Taiping Rebellion era. (A quick Google picks up a few that have even made it over here, though I don't think I've seen them.) Given that Bollywood puts out more movies each year than any other film industry in the world, it's safe to say that there are likewise lavishly-produced historical epics about Indian events that neither you nor I have much familiarity with. There were popular songs about the war between Steven and Matilda. (Shakespeare quotes one in part.) How many people would you have to ask to find one who could tell you who Steven and Matilda were, when their war was, and who won?

Sure, Hitler was one of the defining figures of twentieth century Earth. Pope Innocent III was one of the defining figures of twelfth century Europe-- and if you asked a club of twenty-five bright American teens about him, you might find one who could identify one of the important events of his Papacy. Odds that you'd find one who could similarly identify the key figure in, say, sixteenth century India, or third century BC China? (The latter was prominently featured in a big-budget epic with an American release not three years ago.)

It's always possible that the major event of our most recent century and our planet will have just that much penetration and staying power. But there are a lot of centuries and a lot of planets to cover, and Nura isn't as far as we know a particular history buff. (She's also met-- and in at least one case, temporarily allied with-- people who have destroyed or depopulated entire inhabited planets in her lifetime, which I'd guess would tend to recalibrate one's horror scales somewhat.)

Tom: I don't think we're skirting Godwin's Law. (No one's comparing anyone else or their position to Hitler's.) But if others disagree I'll bow out. (I may anyway, as I'm not sure I have much more new to add.)

Michael, the obvious way to settle this is to revisit the issue in a thousand years. See you then. :)

Michael S. seems to be doing a good job of defending me from Mike's charges (which I seem to be taking unduly personally, I guess because I'm actually quite proud of my historical perspective), so I won't pursue that any further, partly because I think it's all been said.

But I have one more flight of fancy that I intend not to resolve this argument but to exist alongside it as a point of interest: what if the Naltorians are (understandably) so concerned about compiling and understanding information about the future that it takes away from the amount of attention they can pay to the past?

Bruce: I'm there. Save me some kono juice. :-)

Matthew: I like this idea. It also takes away some of the incentive for paying as much attention to the past. After all, it's arguable that the major practical impetus to study history (as opposed to its value as a liberal art) is to inform one's perspective on the present and the future. If you can just actually look at the future instead, then the interest of the past is lessened. (Imagine the blow to the argument by historical analogy when the High Seer can just say, "Yes, this looks superficially like the Second Rann-Thanagar War, but in fact unlike the Thanagarians at Proxima, the Khunds really will use their absorbatron bomb stockpile if we relieve the siege of Xudar. So the situations aren't parallel after all.") Ditto for smaller-scale history: people chart what stocks did last year because they can't know what they'll do tomorrow-- if they could, investment history would be more or less entirely irrelevant.

(Of course, it's hard to know how you do an investment market among people with predictive powers, but that's a challenge for the writers. :-) )

Schiffer: Hitler didn't start a local war.

Let me try a somewhat different tact... I think that Hitler is a singular historical figure much as Genghis Khan and Alexander the Great are. How familiar does Nura really have to be to recognize that Hitler was evil? Slaughter a few million people without using nukes would seem to be all the familiarity one might need.

As for Bollywood making more movies than the rest of the world, inarguably, but so what? The national film registry takes steps to preserve films. Schindler's List is in it. And it's not alone. I am not saying that no movies have been made about 12th century China, only that more and more popular ones have been made about WWII. If someone's trying to get romantic with Nura, might they pick Casablanca? (But, you cry, nobody will remember Casablanca in 1,000 years. Possible, I suppose, but I would stick it up against Beowulf.)

Comparing Innocent III to Hitler seems offbase to me. Going by memory he mainly picked a fight with the Holy Roman empire over the authority of the church and started up the fourth crusade. Hitler tried to wipe out a major religion which has now, as one of its mottos, "never forget." You can assume, I suppose, that the Jews will forget anyway, but it seems a weak assumption given that people do remember things from 1,000 years ago.

As to the specific case...

Nura is apparently spending time on Earth, so one assumes she will at least sample the local culture. She was friends with Superboy, who is from the twentieth century. She has time traveled to the twentieth century. If she watches any movies from the period, there's rather an excellent chance she will encounter Hitler.

My reading of Chinese poetry is from an earlier period, by the way, but again, this is a bad comparison. Movies and tv are easier than poetry. For one thing, more than one person can do it at the same time. Thom can say "Nura, you want to come with me to watch Clark's showing of "Raiders of the Lost Ark" rather more easily than he can say "Come, Nura, let us read stirring poetry together." Yes, people can read try to each other, but it's not as easy.

Schiffer: Hitler didn't start a local war.

On the scale of the UP? He never even conquered one single planet. He couldn't even reach the Moon. On an interstellar level, he'd come off pretty much the way the guys who conquered part of China do to us.

There are a lot of failed planetary potentates in UP history, plus a fair number of successful ones, and even some multiplanet empires. Someone who'd managed a similar feat on Naltor might look major (just as every country's own civil wars loom large internally)-- but at interstellar distances and ten centuries in the past?

But, you cry, nobody will remember Casablanca in 1,000 years. Possible, I suppose, but I would stick it up against Beowulf.

What fraction of Americans do you think have actually read Beowulf, even after the recent best-selling translation? Now, name another English poem from a century to either side of Beowulf.

Comparing Innocent III to Hitler seems offbase to me. Going by memory he mainly picked a fight with the Holy Roman empire over the authority of the church and started up the fourth crusade.

Everyone forgets the Albigensian Crusade. (Which was an effort to wipe out what was at the time a fairly major religion in Europe.) There's a quote about Innocent III's having presided over the destruction of three separate civilizations: Languedoc, the Byzantine Empire, and Moorish Spain (minus Grenada), each of which fell to a Crusade he'd proclaimed. Which isn't to draw an equivalence between them (particularly a moral one). Just that it's possible to be a major, pivotal figure in history without being a household name in the far future.

Movies and tv are easier than poetry. For one thing, more than one person can do it at the same time. Thom can say "Nura, you want to come with me to watch Clark's showing of "Raiders of the Lost Ark" rather more easily than he can say "Come, Nura, let us read stirring poetry together." Yes, people can read try to each other, but it's not as easy.

Once upon a time, poets were big figures and listening to poetry was a major pastime. These days, you can find kids who'll switch the channel if they see black-and-white, and George Lucas thinks he has to update SFX after less than a generation. Odds that 20th century movies will be other than curios to someone from another planet a thousand years in the future? It's not impossible-- it's just IMHO far from a slam-dunk.

(BTW, do "Raiders" or "Casablanca" actually mention Hitler? Nazis, sure, but in those movies they're uniformed villains. Is their leader even named, let alone described? Would Nura know that "the Fuehrer" was the same guy she'd been told had once taken over Superboy's brain?)

I'll grant Mike's assertion that Nura would know the name Hitler...even context of "Hitler, bad guy of Earth's WW2".
My problem with the scene is the come back should have been, "And we defeated Darkseid when that meant something" rather than babbling something about Braniac 5.

And it seems clear from the final panel that Barry's stuck in a lightning rod, to be released sometime in Countdown.

But I think the story makes no sense. Yes, they knew the Tornado Twins...but in my recent re-reading of Levitz's 2nd run into vol4, they don't get mentioned until they're killed by the Dominators.

And XS was a post-Zero Legionnaire. Which I'm guess is now the Earth-8 Legion.

Schiffer: But we have actual examples of genocidal maniacs in the UP. Roxxas, for example, killed all the Trommies. It was strongly implied in Levitz' run that this slaughter did not amount to much more than a few thousand if that, and yet it was also implied that Roxxas was quite famous.

What fraction of Americans do you think have actually read Beowulf, even after the recent best-selling translation? Now, name another English poem from a century to either side of Beowulf.

Well, it's still required in many senior English curricula..ten percent? That might be optimistic. They still base movies on it and Xena had an episode. I think it is probably better known than you thibk i is, but I could e wrong. As to naming another English poem on either side... Impossible. As to another Old English poem, well, Beowulf isn't used because of its tremendous literary value. It's what survived. We have codices with various snaches, but otherwise... The Fight of Finburgh.

But that brings up an intriguing point. If you plug "Edith Piaf" into You Tube, you will find much Edith Piaf, so I would submit that the likelihood of Edith Piaf's memory surviving is slightly higher than it would have been even 125 years ago. Hitler is also available on video.

Btw, calling the Cathars a major religion in Europe in the 13th century is givign them a lot of credit.

And don't equivocate. You didn't say "Listening to poetry recitals." You said "Reading poetry." (And yes, trust me, in Indiana you don't escape without hearing about James Whitcomb Riley. Poet of "Little Orphant Annie," btw.)

And again, as for Nura knowing the Fuehrer... She's one of the most intelligent LSHers, she was the leader for a significant time, and she was a bit of an intellectual. I would not think it out of character for her to have studied every Legion villain.

I suddenly remembered that I wrote a thing once that's relevant to this discussion, and why wouldn't I pimp it here? It's about, ahem, historical perspective.

For what it's worth, there are two Beowulf movies coming out by the end of the year. The big budget one, out in November, is co-written by Neil Gaiman.

Just to be a punk: what if they didn't come back for Barry... but Bart instead?

I'm fairly sure that Raiders had a line something like, "Hitler is obsessed with the occult." Casablanca I'm less sure about.

Terrance: then wouldn't they have had an easier time just stopping him from getting killed, since apparantly it's happening simultaneously.

IIRC, a couple of the soldiers exchange a 'Heil Hitler' at least once.

Terrance: then wouldn't they have had an easier time just stopping him from getting killed, since apparantly it's happening simultaneously.

Good point, but maybe Bart's death had to happen because history recorded it blah blah blah you know the trope. :)

Anyone see the All-Flash preview yet? It was pretty cool.