Well, for what's it worth, a few years back I had the chance to chat with SP's creator, Randy Milholland, at a San Francisco anime con, and he at least came across as a nice, funny, and sharp guy. No psycho vibes at all.

Ron Marz killed off Kyle rayner's girlfriend in one of her first two or three issues ever, what fifteen years ago or so? Dr. Zoom killed Iris, and Green Goblin killed Gwen. I think that's one every 15 years or so. We're due for another. I nominate Lois. (Sue doesn't count since she was killed by another chippie)

Is there some rash of women being killed in refrigerators in comics that I don't know about? Or is Marz just a way better writer than I thought who somehow touched a nerve?

Major Force stuffed a woman he thought was Kyle's mom in a fridge too, IIRC. But it was a neighbor.

That bring us up to quota? Or was that two women fifteen years ago? Oh, and would it be better if they weren't stuffed in a fridge? (David Kelly was sticking people in freezers at about the same time.)

Mike Chary: I suppose that depends on how broad some people's definitions of "Women in Refridgerators" syndrome is. For example, Sue Dibny's murder might not count, but her rape at the hands of Dr. Light (something I find remarkably bizarre to type, by the way) might. She may not have been killed, but the argument could be made that it's the same principle: woman as helpless victim, humiliated and horribly hurt as a plot device to motivate the male hero.

The Spoiler being wounded badly as Robin and then being allowed to die by Leslie Thompkins to teach Batman a lesson about the harsh reality of crime(again, a strange sentence to write) is another possible example.

Mike: You've apparently lived a very sheltered life, there a whole damn site dedicated to the phenomena.

http://www.unheardtaunts.com/wir/women.html

Granted, not everyone on the list was kiiled and/or stuffed in a fridge, but it's still an interesting (and upsetting) read.

A sheltered life? I'm actually aware of that website but...

I'm only talking about the fridge thing. It seems to hae struck a cord. As for the treatment of women characters in comics, well, bluntly, nobody, male or female comes off well in comics. I note, for example, Dawnstar's treatment in the TMK LSH makes the list, leaving us to imagine what the list maker thinks of what happened to Blok, Lightning Lad, Mon El, Timber Wolf, etc. Nobody came off well in the TMK LSH.

Psylocke was depowered and mindswapped in my opinion, but in the opinion of the peope actually writing the book, she was turned into a more powerful self-assured character. (Recall that Betsy Braddock was kind of a professional victim in the Captain Britain book. And in her first appearance in the main X-titles, she comes within a gnat's eyelash of statutory rape on Cypher)

Now, as to the merits of that list:

Yes, women get victimized, but so do men. Superman was depowered and killed and whatever. Batman was crippled and lost a partner. Jason Todd was killed. Hal Jordan was killed. Barry Allen killed. Ollie Queen killed. Et cetera.

So basically that list is a piece of intellectual dishonesty attributing to one subset of characters a trait which is in fact common to all characters in a melodramatic medium, to wit characters in superhero comic books are shit magnets.

Whoa ... deja vu.

What about the intellectual dishonesty of rattling off a list of dead males as if it means anything, given that all but one has been ressurected, and that one is dangling.

Maybe, just maybe, Mike Chary is wrong, and the reason the list has struck a nerve is because there is something to it? But then you couldn't be a Curmudgeon without a kneejerk rant about "kids these days", I guess.

Jason: sorry, missed that discussion

David: Or maybe I'm not wrong. We'll never know. Or at least you won't because you're too stupid to figure it out on your own, and I want you to believe wrong things so I'm not going to try to convince you. Besides, I used actual evidence, and you are just making bald, stupid assertions, so I'm not going to bother addressing them. You may stop reading now, secure, like Pat Robertson and Pat O'Neill that you are write and that nothing a moron like me can say will change your tiny mind.

As to the rest of you, what will do? A list of dead male characters (Red Bee, Robin II, Ferro Lad, Swordsman.) Females who keep coming back? (Jean Grey, Wonder Woman, Hawk Woman)

The fact is this: Hal Jordan was gone for a long time as was Ollie. Dead people tend to stick around in comics "The Spectre" and "Deadman" for example, so it's not that they were killed off so much as written out. Batgirl Barbara Gordan was a bit player in the DCU before Joker shot her. Now she's a major character, Oracle. So the character was paralyzed, but they are now telling interesting stories about her. I fail to see this as a net negative.

The problem is this, in the melodramatric context of superhero stories, there's only so much you can do to develop a character before resorting to things like depowering (The Thing lost his powers semi-regularly as does Wolvy) or killing or what not.

There was a tv show in the 1980's called "Hunter." The female lead character was raped in one episode. a couple years later they decided to do it again, and the actress refused on the grounds that once was dramatic, twice was bad, lazy writing.

So basically, it happens everywhere not just comics and not just to women.

Just a quick note:

Anecdotal evidence (citing a handful of instances) is statistically meaningless.

Carry on!

Mike: To quote another thread on this site, the problem isn't that this shit happens to men as well as to women, the problem is it happens to women disproportionately.

Ken: and that is exactly my point.

That website picks up a bunch of women characters like, oh Storm, and says she was depowered, which is true as far as it goes. But she was depowred, and then kicked Cyclops' ass (which should never have happened, btw) and then became leader of the X-men, taking her from the token black on the team to being one of the strongest most vibrant female characters in comics.

That doesn't seem to be an example of a woman being treated shabbily in comic books.

Or Gwen Stacy's on the list. But her father, Captain Stacy, who was just as important a character in Spider-man at the time, was killed somewhat earlier. So the website dosn't merely rely on anecdotal evidence. It's either dishonest or stupid in its interpretation of that evidence.

Mike: First, let me say this: in terms of the specifics, I too am a bit skeptical of the list; Peter David's Supergirl is on there because she lost her invisibilty and her morphing powers, despite the fact she maintained all the classic superpowers and eventually gained new abilities like her fire wings and psychic abilities.

However, I am not entirely dismissive of the point they are attempting to make. Your example of Gwen Stacy and her father highlights, to me, a key factor here. Gwen died a helpless victim, tossed off a bridge by a psychopath, while Captain Stacy died a hero, pushing a child out of the way of falling debris. Just to add insult to injurt, Captain Stacy's dying words reveal he had deduced that Peter Parker and Spider-man were one and the same, while Gwen was presumably still in the dark even when she died. Do you see the difference?

Mike: You seem to be missing mine. As far as these things go, WiR is far more comprehensive than you've been. To say "well, that's not true, because INSTANCE 1! and INSTANCE 2!" is a pretty meaningless counter-argument.

Ken: Ah! Well, then you are welcome to believe the list. I am not going to go through individually coming up with counterexamples. The list is flawed both in specific examples and logically. If you want to believe it, that's on you, but it should not be taken at face value by anyone who wants to give serious thought to these issues, which class does not appear to be anyone on either side of the debate in comics.

Setting aside the topic of whether the list is valid or not, and getting back to the original topic of the post:

I can't really tell what Greg means by "anti-WIR Something Positive strip". Does he mean that the strip is anti-'women in refridgerators' (the phenomenon), or that the strip is anti-'Women In Refridgerators' (the website)?

I only ask, because I can't quite figure out what the strip is trying to say, myself. Yes, that woman is over-the-top, but Something Positive is filled with violence-prone, over-the-top women that the author treats as fully justified. And the villain deserved it. So I'm not to sure if it's anti-wir, or anti-WIR.

Clay, I meant that the strip is anti the phenomenon.

As much a I am loath to defend a worthless hack like Ron Marz, the decision to kill Alex was, by all accounts, Kevin Dooley's.